Understanding Validity and Reliability – What Makes a Test Trustworthy? (Assessment and Diagnostic Services)
He may even identify himself with it and believe that he is what he appears to be.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Welcome to the NCE study guide.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):We're really glad you could join us.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. We're all working together to get you ready for the NCE.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):That's the goal. And today we're diving into the assessment and diagnostic services domain.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Right, a really key work behavior category on the NCE.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And it ties right into the CACREP core area of appraisal.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):You know all that important stuff selecting assessment tools, interpreting them, using them ethically.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Super critical for counseling practice. Yeah. And actually this whole deep dive today, it was inspired by Amy from our study group.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Oh right, her comment about Exactly.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):She mentioned how understanding validity better might have been that one point she needed for the NCE. It really struck a chord.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It really did. So Amy, thank you. That insight was invaluable.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Definitely. It's contributions like that that make the study group so great.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Absolutely. And for anyone new here, the NCE study guide is put together by Glenn Oslin.
The Wizard of Oz:Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Glenn passed the NCE not too long ago. He's got master's degrees in both folklore and, clinical mental health counseling.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Plus over six years teaching experience at Indiana University and international health care work too. Quite the background.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):It really shaped the approach.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. You
Bob (AI Study Buddy):know? Focusing on understanding, not just memorizing.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Mhmm. And the guide operates on three core values Glenn talks about. Curiosity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Like digging deeper for patterns.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Integrity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Acting with clarity, ethically.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And connection.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Growing together, sharing understanding. It's a good framework.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And Glenn calls his method an AI puppet show, which I always find amusing.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. He uses tools like Chad GPT and NotebookLM.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):To take these complex topics and make them more engaging, more digestible.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. Mirroring the kind of critical thinking you need for the exam itself. It's clever.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It really is. So if you're finding this deep dive helpful for your own prep
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Janet (AI Study Buddy):It honestly helps other future counselors discover these resources. A huge help.
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Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. So let's get into the meat of it. Validity, reliability, ethical use.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):We wanna really unpack what these means so you feel more confident.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Let's do it. Equipping you for the NCE.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Alright. Section one, understanding validity and reliability.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. So thinking about the study group again, a lot of confusion comes up around these terms, doesn't it?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Definitely. Validity, reliability, all the subtypes. People say the definitions blur together.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. And trying to recall them under pressure, that's tough. Amy's comment again. Had I known validity, that could have been my one point. It really hits home.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):It does. It shows these aren't just abstract ideas. They have real weight on the exam and, well, in practice too.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So the goal here is to go deeper than just definition. We want to build a kind of mental model.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Something accessible, even when you're stressed during the test. Understand how they work, why they matter.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Because as counselors, we're using assessments all the time.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Constantly. Diagnosis, treatment planning, measuring progress.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Justifying treatment sometimes.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. These tools are powerful, but only if they're accurate and consistent.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Which brings us right back to reliability and validity. So reliability, what's the core question there?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Reliability asks, can we trust the results to be consistent? If I give this test again, will I get a similar score? Is it dependable?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Consistency and validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Validity asks, does this test measure what it says it measures? Is it actually assessing say depression or is it measuring something else? Is it accurate?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Right. Because without reliability
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The results are just unpredictable, useless for making decisions.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And without validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Well, you could be reliably wrong measuring the wrong thing consistently.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Which is clinically problematic and ethically problematic too.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Absolutely. Making treatable decisions based on faulty information Yeah. It's a serious issue.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So they're really fundamental for ethical practice, for accurate work, for evidence based counseling.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And that's why the NCE tests them the way it does, focusing on application, on understanding the real world implications, not just reciting definitions.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It wants to see you can think like a counselor about these tools.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. It's These concepts aren't new. They really started developing back in the early twentieth century.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):With psychological testing taking off? People like Binet and Hermann?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. They realized pretty quickly they needed ways to evaluate the quality of their intelligence tests. Is this thing any good?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And that led to psychometrics.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. The whole field. Researchers like Spearman, later Kronbach, they developed the statistical tools.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):To measure that consistency and accuracy we're talking about.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Mhmm. And eventually, organizations like the APA set standards. Tests had to meet certain reliability and validity criteria.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Which is crucial. It ensures some level of quality control.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And these aren't just like academic hoops to jump through. They're the ethical backbone.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):The ACA code of ethics hammers this home too, right?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Absolutely. Use reliable, valid tools and make sure they're appropriate for the specific clients and populations you're working with.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):That cultural piece is so important. Critical.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. It all boils down to acting in the client's best interest. Using the best tools we have to understand and help them.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. So let's nail down the difference again. They're linked, but distinct.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. Reliability, consistency.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like do you get similar results repeatedly?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. And validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Accuracy.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Does the test measure the thing it's supposed to measure?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Perfect. Think of that scale analogy again.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay. The scale. If it shows the same weight every time I step on it.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It's reliable, consistent.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):But if that weight is always five pounds off?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It's not valid. It's consistently inaccurate.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Got it. So a test can be reliable but not valid.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Definitely. Measuring the wrong thing very consistently.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):But can it be valid if it's not reliable?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Not really. If the results jump around wildly each time, how can it be accurately measuring anything specific? Reliability is kind of a prerequisite for validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Reliability is the foundation. That's a key point. It really is. Now something to ease anxieties.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The the NCE isn't gonna make you do the math.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Oh, thank goodness. No calculating Cronbach's alpha by hand.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):No. No formula is needed. What you do need is to tell the difference between the types.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Understand what each type of validity or reliability tells you about a test.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. And apply it. They love scenario questions.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like, a counselor needs a depression scale. What kind of validity is crucial here?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Precisely. Or what are the ethical risks if this test lacks x type of reliability?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So it's about function and context, not just definitions.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. Pattern recognition over rate memorization. Understand why it matters.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):What does validity allow you to do? What does reliability allow? How does it connect to ethics?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Let's try that framework. Reliability's core question.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Is it consistent?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Real world use.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Will this test give similar results over time or with different raters?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Validity's core question.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Is it accurate?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Real world use.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Does this test measure what I need it to measure for this client?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Perfect. If you keep asking consistent or accurate, the subtypes become clearer.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):There are just different ways to answer those main questions.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. So some common subtypes for validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Face validity. Does it look right on the surface?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Content validity. Does it cover the whole topic?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Construct validity. Does it measure the abstract idea accurately?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And criterion validity. Does it predict or correlate with other outcomes?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And for reliability?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Test retest, consistent over time.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Inter rater, different scores agree.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And internal consistency, do the items hang together, measure the same thing.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Got it. And some types are more crucial depending on the situation. Right?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Absolutely. Like inter rater reliability is vital if assessment results are used in court. Need that consistency between scores.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And construct validity is huge for things like depression scales where the concept itself is complex and abstract.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. You need confidence you're actually measuring depression.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Any tips for remembering these? Mnemonics?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Sure. For validity, maybe CCC, content, construct, criterion, faces kind of the first glance.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):CCC content construct criterion. Alright. And reliability.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Maybe TII? Test retest, inter rater, internal consistency?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):TII. Test retest, inter rater, internal, helpful.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And always connect back to ethics. Would you trust this test for a major decision?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Connecting to practice experiences helps too.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Definitely. Focus on application, not just stats.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So quick recap. Validity, accuracy, reliability, consistency, ethics are paramount. NCE tests application. Understand the function.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And use logic on the test. Is the question about accuracy or consistency? Eliminate options.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It's about critical thinking, ethical thinking. Why does this matter for counselors?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Precisely. That's the mindset to cultivate.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Let's move into section two. We're gonna tackle those essential terms head on.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Yeah. The ones that trip people up. Like Amy felt, maybe focusing too much on theorists instead of the core concepts. The vocabulary itself can be a hurdle.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So many similar sounding terms, overlapping meanings. It's tough under pressure.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Our goal here is to clarify 10 key terms, definition, counseling example, and an NCE tip for each.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Let's build that confidence. First up, face validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Face validity. Definition. Does the test look like it measures what it's supposed to? It's a surface level check.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like that anxiety inventory example, questions like, do you often feel worried? It just seems relevant.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. It appears on the face of it to be about anxiety. NCE tip Remember, face validity is weak evidence. It might look good but doesn't guarantee it is good. The NCE might present it as the least scientific type.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Look out for questions contrasting superficial versus deep measurement.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay, good tip. Number two: Content Validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Content Validity. Definition. Does the test cover the entire range of the construct? Is it comprehensive?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like that study skills test example. It needs to cover time management, note taking, test anxiety, etc. To be comprehensive.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. If it only asked about note taking, would lack content validity for overall study skills.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):NCE tip for content validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Often tested in test design scenarios. If the question asks if a test fully represents a topic or skill area, think content validity. Is it comprehensive?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Got it. Number three, construct validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Construct validity. Definition. Does the test accurately measure the abstract psychological concept or construct? This looks at the theory behind the test.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like depression or intelligence or resilience. These aren't things you can just like see directly.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. So does the depression scale truly capture the complex nature of depression? This involves checking if it correlates with other depression measures.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):That's convergent validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. And checking if it doesn't correlate with unrelated things like say height.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Discriminant validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Yep. NCEE tip for construct validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Look for abstract concepts. Anxiety, personality, self esteem. If the question is about how well a test measures a theoretical idea, construct validity is key.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Number four, criterion validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Criterion validity definition. Does the test correlate with or predict an external outcome or criterion? How useful is it in practice?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):And it have two subtypes. Right?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Yes. Predictive validity, does it predict future performance? And concurrent validity, does it correlate with current performance on another measure?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):So predictive example, a career test predicting job success later on.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Concurrent example, a new quick depression screener correlating highly with scores on a longer established depression inventory given at the same time.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Got it. NCE tip for criterion
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Look for scenarios involving predictions, selection, diagnosis, or comparing a test to a real world outcome or another established test.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Okay.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Makes sense. Okay. Halfway through the terms. Number five, shifting to reliability. Test, retest reliability.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Ish. Retest reliability. Definition. Yeah. Consistency over time.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Same test, same person, two different times, similar results.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Assuming nothing major changed for the person. Yeah. Like measuring trait anxiety should be stable.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. NCE tip.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):If the question mentions administering the same test at two different times, it's almost certainly about test retest reliability. Note the time interval if mentioned. Okay. Number six, inter rater reliability.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Inter rater reliability. Definition, consistency between different scores or raters. Do they agree?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Like the play therapy example, two therapists observing the same child with the same checklist. Do their scores match up?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Precisely. Essential for subjective assessments. NCE tip.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Look for keywords like observer, evaluator, score, rater. If multiple people are judging, inter rater reliability is relevant. Got it. Number seven, internal consistency.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Internal consistency. Definition. Do the items within the test measure the same underlying concept? Are the items homogenous? Do they hang together?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):This is where Cronbach's Alpha comes in, conceptually at least.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. You want all items on your depression scale to actually relate to depression, not, you know, pizza preference.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Right. NCE tip for internal consistency.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Look for phrases like items measure the same trait, items hang together, correlation among items, or mentions of Cronbach's Alpha. It's about the guts of the test itself. Okay. Number eight, standardization.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Standardization. Definition. Consistent, uniform procedures for administering and scoring the test. Often includes establishing norms from a large sample.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Like IQ tests or achievement tests, everyone gets the same instructions, time limits, scoring rules, allows for comparison to the norm group.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):NCE tip for standardization.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Often comes up in ethical questions, especially regarding diverse populations and whether norms apply. If the question involves comparing scores to a group or uniform procedures, standardization is likely involved. Makes sense. Nine Norm referenced versus criterion referenced tests
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Norm referenced compares your score to other people, a norm group. Criterion referenced compares your score to a set standard or benchmark.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Like the SAT, norm referenced how you did versus others versus a driving test. Criterion referenced, did you meet the passing standard?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Clear distinction, NCE tip.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Watch if the comparison is to peers, norm, or to achieving a specific level criterion. Common in educational career counseling scenarios. Okay, last one. Number 10, measurement error.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Measurement error definition. The difference between someone's true score and their observed score on the test.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):All tests have some error, right? Things like mood, distractions, guessing.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. Reducing error increases reliability. A reliable test has less measurement error.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):NCE tip for measurement error.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It might be implied. Questions about test trustworthiness or reliability are often related. A more reliable test has lower measurement error. Okay, wow, that's 10 terms. Let's try a quick strategic recap for the NCE.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Good idea. If the question is about coverage of material.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Think content validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Prediction.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Predictive validity, a type of criterion.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Superficial appearance. Vice validity. Measuring an abstract trait.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Construct validity.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Agreement between two tests now.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Concurrent validity. A type of criterion.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Consistency over time.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Test. Retest reliability. Agreement between raters. Inter rater reliability.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):That how items hang together.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Internal consistency.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Uniform administration and norms. Standardization. Comparing to peers versus a standard.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Norm reference versus criterion reference.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Right. Contextualize these. What decision is being made? Predicting, confirming, measuring, concerned with time, raters.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It's all about evaluating the trustworthiness of the assessment.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Exactly. Simple guide. Is it good? Think validity. Can I trust the results to be consistent?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Think reliability.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Alright. Time to test this understanding. Section three, NCE style mini quiz.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Five questions. Just like we discussed, we'll go through each one question options, restate answer, explanation.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Ready. Question one, focusing on validity type content validity. A school counselor develops a new assessment tool to evaluate students' study skills. The test includes questions about time management, test anxiety, note taking, reading comprehension, and class participation. Which type of validity is most relevant in determining whether the test thoroughly represents the concept of study skills?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Your options are A, construct validity, B, criterion validity, C, face validity, D, content validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay. Restating. Which validity type checks if the test covers the whole range of study skills?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The correct answer is D, content validity. Why? Because content validity is precisely about ensuring the test items adequately sample the entire domain in this case, the multifaceted concept of study skills.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Makes sense. It covers various aspects. Question two: Reliability type retest reliability A private practice counselor gives the same depression inventory to a client on two separate occasions The client's life circumstances have not changed significantly and the test results are nearly identical. What does this suggest about the instrument?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Options A, inter rater reliability B, test retest reliability C, construct validity, D, concurrent validity.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Restarting. Same test, same person, two different times, similar scores. What does this show?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The answer is B, test retest reliability. This scenario is the classic definition of test retest reliability consistency of scores over a period of time.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Straightforward. Question three. Validity type predictive validity. A university uses a career assessment to help determine which students are likely to be successful in nursing school. The tool has been shown to accurately forecast which students complete program and obtain licensure.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):This type of evidence supports.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Options are A, face validity B, construct validity C, predictive validity D, inter rater reliability.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Restating. The test predicts future success in nursing school. What kind of validity is this?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):That would be c. Predictive validity. Predictive validity is specifically concerned with how well a test score forecasts performance on a future criterion like success in a program.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Connection. Question four, reliability type inter rater reliability. During a play therapy session, two different clinicians observed the same child using a standardized behavioral rating scale. Both clinicians assigned nearly identical scores across all categories. This most clearly demonstrates.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Choices. A, inter rater reliability. B, internal consistency. C, concurrent validity. D, test retest reliability.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Restating. Two clinicians observe the same thing, use the same scale, get similar scores. What does this demonstrate?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The answer here is A, inter rater reliability. This is all about the degree of agreement between independent raters or observers.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Okay, final quiz question. Number five: Validity and ethics appropriate use. A counselor selects a selects a standardized personality test for use with a culturally diverse client. The counselor did not verify whether the test had been validated for use with this population. What is the most likely issue regarding the test's validity for this client?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Test lacks face validity B. The test lacks predictive validity C. The test has poor inter rater reliability D. The test may lack content or construct validity for this population.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Using a standard test on a diverse client without checking if it's validated for that group, what's the biggest validity concern?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):The most likely issue is D. The test may lack content or construct validity for this population. Ethically, we must ensure tests are appropriate. A test not validated for a specific group might not accurately measure the intended traits or its content might not be relevant Yeah, applying the concepts is key. Thinking about the purpose in each scenario, eliminating wrong answers.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And asking, is it about accuracy, validity, or consistency, reliability?
Bob (AI Study Buddy):That fundamental distinction helps narrow it down.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Well, that brings us near the end of this deep dive on validity and reliability.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):We really hope this discussion has brought some clarity to these essential NCE concepts.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):Remember, it's not just about memorizing terms for the test. It's about thinking like a counselor.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Understanding the practical side, the ethical side, how these tools impact your future clients.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):If you did find this useful, we'd be so grateful if you could leave a five star rating for the podcast.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):It really does help others find us.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):And please feel to email us, ncisestudyguide@gmail.com. Join the study group, suggest topics, connect.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):We genuinely enjoy hearing from you and building this learning community.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):So as a final thought to leave you with, something to ponder as you continue studying.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):How could misunderstanding, validity, or reliability, maybe choosing the wrong test or misinterpreting results actually lead to ethical problems in your counseling practice?
Janet (AI Study Buddy):It's a heavy question, but an important one for future counselors. Something to think about.
Bob (AI Study Buddy):Definitely. Mull that over. Thanks for tuning in.
Janet (AI Study Buddy):We'll catch you on the next deep dive. Good luck with your studies. Two, three.
